The Cathedral Arctic

September 8, 2006

Atheism and Morality

Filed under: Atheism, Christianity, Fundamentalism — inaeth @ 3:52 pm

Some comments were made on this blog that caused me great concern, as it seemed that while the author was not deliberately trying to deceive others, that was still the case in the ignorance of the quotation of certain matters as fact rather than just speculation. I believe that this is caused by the Church’s arrogance, and some cases ignorance, about philosophies and praxii other than their own, as well as certain pastors attempts to demonize anything that stood in counterpoint to their own theologies. Of course, when it comes to religion, very few people will go out of their way to read up on opposing viewpoints contrary to their own, and even fewer people take the time necessary to learn the rules of logic and reasoning that underpin their own understanding of whatever Scripture is held in Holy regard. When this is done to the Christian community, a great hew and cry is raised to point out the ignorance of the viewpoint, diatribe, or argument that was utilized against them, which I believe that they rightly do so. No argument should be based in ignorance, or a willful distortion of other’s worldview that you yourself may not hold. Such is the death of wisdom; true wisdom comes in the form of knowing how little you know, and striving to add to your knowledge with the tools that you have available.

In the Christian community, especially within the Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Fundamentalist sects that I’m more than familiar with, there is rampant disdain that is lavished on atheism in general, and atheists in particular. I believe that the majority of this comes from the confusion of separate issues; for instance, the first issue that is usually raised is the fact that most Christians believe that morality only comes from God. The second topic that gets confused is that atheism, by some Christian’s definition, is necessarily equated to Communism, two completely different philosophies; one dealing with issues pertaining to the supernatural, the other dealing with a form of government. The last point of confusion that I would like to deal with is the question of meaning in a person’s life. Most Christians, through ignorance of philosophy and other’s viewpoints, often point out that the outlook of atheism is bleak, desolate, and spiritually bankrupt, as it leads to a mechanistic view of the universe, with an absence of meaning. Of course, my contention is that all of these myths about atheism are exactly that- myths.

What is atheism? In the simplest sense, atheism is the lack of belief in God, gods, and the supernatural. Most atheists have a lack of belief in the supernatural because the supernatural is not proven, cannot be tested for, and in almost all cases, cannot even be properly defined. According to this stance, if you asked ten different people what a “spirit” was, you would get ten different answers, none of which agrees with the others outside of the nebulous, ethereal nature of the “spirit”. Of course, most atheists have only the lack of belief in the supernatural; others, however, hold an active disbelief. This arises from the contradictions in fact and in reasoning of the theist position on almost all arguments relating to the existence of some transcendent being in (out of) the universe. Agnosticism, on the other hand, is what a lot of Christians confuse with atheism, mainly that agnosticism is the belief that a god could exist, but the uncertainty of if it does, or which one is the true God. However, in regards to atheism, the lack of a belief, or the active disbelief, of gods and the supernatural is the sum totality of the philosophy.

What of morality? The common misconception about morality is that if one does not adhere to a belief inRembrandt_Beggars the Divine, then one cannot be a moral or ethical person. The fallacy in this can be immediately seen, as there have always been, and always will be, persons who abuse their religion in order to justify the expedience of definite immoral and unethical behavior. For example, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and even the Third Reich based their hideous and repugnant immorality upon the ideas of Christianity. In the current day, we as a society are still dealing with extremists such as the Aryan Nation, Westboro Baptist Church, and Fundamentalist Muslims who all believe in God, but perform immoral act after immoral act. Clearly, it can be seen that adherence to morality is not a correlation to theism. Just as Christians are errant in blaming mainstream atheism for the conception and execution of Communism and other assorted ills, so too is the atheist in blaming mainstream Christianity for the examples that were cited. Obviously, there is something else in the formation of morality and ethics.

What would this other thing be? To take a look at an example, what of the Christian who only follows a moral code because of her fear of condemnation in a lake of eternal fire? Would this person be more moral than an atheist who follows a moral code just because it is the right thing to do? You see, most atheists, because of their belief that this is the only life that we have to live, take life as a precious thing, and seek to make it as comfortable and enjoyable for all concerned as possible. Hence, their concern for following an ethical code of conduct, as this is the only way that ensures that all are accorded the right to live their lives as they see fit without abrogation of others’ rights to do the same. A good starting point would be Zindler’s essay on atheism and ethics. Also, when we look into the ancient world, we see philosophers and natural scientists that did not have access to the Bible, believed in capricious gods that had questionable morals, but were still able to make magnificent (for their time) treatises on Ethics and Morality. Plato and Aristotle both wrote articles on the ethics of human behavior that are still studied in High Schools and Universities today. In fact, it was Plato who first identified that gods, goodness, and The Good were separate entities, according to his Platonic Idealism, and then formulated his philosophy’s source for the operation of human ethics and morality. We can see that atheism does not equate to immorality. Neither does theism. Morality is defined, regulated, and ruled by other ideas and concepts.

Of course, with the advent of Communism, most Christians latched onto the phrase “Godless Atheist” when describing the Soviet Union. Then it was a “known” fact that all Communisms were atheist in origin. However, even a cursory glance at history show that this is not the case. The most successful communist regime in the world today, and by far the oldest, is the Catholic Church. Most Christians are uncomfortable with that fact, because they have been conditioned to only think of Communism in terms of a caricature of atheism. However, the underpinning of atheism is freedom of thought. Any structure that opposes an individual’s right to think for themselves is antithetical to the most important element to many Atheists. Given this, it is easy to see that Christianity lends itself far more easily to Fascism than Atheism does to Communism.

The last point to consider is the meaning of life, and should such a meaning necessarily be contingent upon the belief in a transcendent deity? Of course, most theists will state that of course it is contingent, as only God can give meaning to an individual’s life. When examined, though, we see that this viewpoint is reached because of a subscription to an ideal of a Straw Man in regards to atheism- namely, that atheism has no meaning to offer, and equates all “truths” as being relative to each other, which lowers the meanings of everything to the lowest common denominator of nothing more than a mechanistic universe. This Straw Man is false, and has been shown to be false again and again, yet still the Fundamentalists like to offer this viewpoint as the truth in regards to those who hold opposing viewpoints to their own. Any cursory inspection (again, that fundamental requisite to intelligently discuss such topics, which most Fundamentalists neglect) of philosophy will show that a meaning for life is not hinged upon the belief in God. In fact, by definition of a meaning for life in the Union of the individual with God after life inherently denigrates all life. By stating that the purpose of life to lie within the unknown (the afterlife and death) one neglects the purpose for this life that is lived.

“If a person cannot find meaning and purpose in their lives without imaging the existence of a state of being after they are dead, they fundamentally devalue and denigrate life itself. Such devaluation, in the long run, only serves to further the cause of violence — especially religious violence — because it encourages people not to value life, whether it is their own life or the lives of other human beings. When life has no value except when it is over, then in the end life simply has no value period.”

For an overview of this philosophical view, go here and here.

Hopefully this will allay some of the myths and stereotypes some fundamentalists hold in regard to Atheism.

29 Comments »

  1. A very well written piece, well done. Hopefully misconceptions about atheism can be cleared up in a calm, rational manner in short order.

    Comment by Matt — September 8, 2006 @ 4:46 pm

  2. Thank you! I will admit to being a sloppy writer on this blog, and I’m sure there will be mistakes revealed that I had not intended. Hopefully, through rational discourse, these can be corrected and refined.

    Comment by inaeth — September 8, 2006 @ 5:00 pm

  3. You put forth these arguments; and, sure, they sound great on the surface; but they themselves are nothing but straw men.

    1. The Catholic Church (the original version, at least) is not Christianity. Why is that? Well, it’s because they devalue Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. They attempt to put value on their works when the Bible clearly states that they are nothing but dirty rags. They are things we do to please God and to make the world a better place; but they are not things we do or are required to do to gain access to heaven. A murder could be convicted and convert the very hour he is executed and still go to heaven, just as one of the thieves did that day on the cross with Jesus. Also, they give so much power to the Catholic Church itself rather than to God that they border on worshipping their church more than they worship God. One piece of my family background is in Catholicism; and from what I hear, reading the Bible for the average Catholic is unnecessary, especially since changes conferred on it by the Church are more important. One might say that they believe in Jesus; and that’s enough; but Hindus believe in Jesus. They have included him in as one of their gods. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses profess a version of Christ, as well. Even Muslims have made Him one of their prophets.

    2. I never said there could never be a moral atheist. What I said was that there is nothing to base your morality on. As such, everyone creates their own morality, which results in either chaos or mob rule.
    By the way, what do you think of the following quotes? Are they accurate statements about Christianity?

    “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity…. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity….
    “Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.”

    “Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.”

    “The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity….
    “Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that’s why someday its structure will collapse….
    “…the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little….
    “Christianity the liar…. ”

    “The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.”

    “The decisive falsification of Jesus’ doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work… for the purposes of personal exploitation…. ”

    “Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery…. ”

    “Pure Christianity– the Christianity of the catacombs– is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind…..”

    “There is something very unhealthy about Christianity.”

    “It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors– but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie.”
    “Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…. My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold .”

    Quote Inaeth:
    However, the underpinning of atheism is freedom of thought. Any structure that opposes an individual’s right to think for themselves is antithetical to the most important element to many Atheists.

    I thought that “the lack of a belief, or the active disbelief, of gods and the supernatural is the sum totality of the philosophy” of atheism. There is nothing in the atheistic ideology that exterminates structure that opposes free thought. For you, free thought is a good thing. For another atheist, it’s a bad thing. And who are you to tell him that he is wrong? What it does do is it exterminates absolutes in morality, leaving the door open for such things as death squads, human experimentation, oppression of opposing thinkers, etc.

    With atheism, especially with the advent of evolution’s survival of the fittest, the strong are the ones who get to make the rules because there is no such thing as absolute wrongs. Therefore, the only filter on whose ideas get to be implemented is whoever can beat down the opposition. Unless we all somehow manage to live separate lives from each other or have a worldwide nation consisting of “regions of ideology” where people who believe in the general beliefs of a particular region has to migrate there or be subject to a different set of laws based on a different set of beliefs, only one set of rules can be implemented on a people at a time. Of course, even in this picture, what do you do with the people who believe that they should rule everyone else and raise armies for that cause?

    By the way, this argument sounds familiar…

    Quote Inaeth:
    In the current day, we as a society are still dealing with extremists such as the Aryan Nation, Westboro Baptist Church, and Fundamentalist Muslims who all believe in God, but perform immoral act after immoral act.

    What’s your definition of immoral?
    You can’t give me one. If you did, you would be advocating the oppression of free thought.

    Quote Inaeth:
    what of the Christian who only follows a moral code because of her fear of condemnation in a lake of eternal fire? Would this person be more moral than an atheist who follows a moral code just because it is the right thing to do?

    I do not follow a moral code because I am afraid of condemnation in a lake of eternal fire. That is an atheist misconception of Christian beliefs based on Catholic beliefs.

    I follow the morals of the Bible because it has proven itself to be the Word of God to me. And God’s morals are good. I follow them because they make the world a better place, not because they save me from a lake of fire because they do not. Jesus has clearly stated this over and over and over again. Not only that, he demonstrated it. What saves me from the lake of fire is my belief and relationship with Jesus. Period. He washed me of my sins; and now I am free.

    But, for argument’s sake, let’s just say you are talking about a Catholic girl here.
    It depends. What’s the right thing to do? How do you define that? Please do so because what if that atheist is following a moral code that says that killing fundamentalists is the right thing to do or that beating up fundamentalists is the right thing to do or that putting them in jail for speaking out on their beliefs is the right thing to do or that killing babies is the right thing to do or that killing useless elderly is the right thing to do?
    All of these are being done by atheists around the world. The last three are even being done in such modern countries as the Netherlands and even the United States. (In Europe, the last four are being done.)
    What can you give me in the way of arguments that I can prove to them that this is wrong based on atheistic beliefs? (Well…., you probably don’t think that killing unborn babies or babies that are “going to die anyway”, as the argument for killing babies a few months after birth goes in the Netherlands, is wrong. So you can nix that.)

    Quote Inaeth:
    Morality is defined, regulated, and ruled by other ideas and concepts.

    aka Certain people who believe in such things as domination are wrong; therefore, we must dominate them.

    Quote Inaeth:
    In fact, by definition of a meaning for life in the Union of the individual with God after life inherently denigrates all life. By stating that the purpose of life to lie within the unknown (the afterlife and death) one neglects the purpose for this life that is lived.

    Huh????? Um….the purpose of life does not lie in the afterlife. Where did you get that idea?

    The purpose in life is to have a relationship with God in this life and the next. God desires to commune with us here, now. That is why we pray. Otherwise, there would be no point. We may as well just say,”Lord, I believe”; and leave it at that. I’d search for verses; but I am running out of time… Must hurry.

    By the way, I have not heard that “straw man” knocked down. Please show me.

    Hope I touched on everything. I’ll have to read that other thing later.

    Comment by June — September 11, 2006 @ 4:00 am

  4. Rebuttal of June’s claims:

    First Point from June- Irrelevant, not to mention off-topic and arbitrary. The point of the article is not whether or not Catholicism is True Christianity (whatever that may be), but utilized the Catholic institution to show that communism is not equated with atheism; a point that you skirted.

    Quotes from June- These quotes, while trying to rebut my point, actually enforce it. In the links provided within the article there were clear examples and logical arguments showing the dichotomy between God and morality. One does not necessarily follow from the other, another point that you ignored. The examples provided showed there is no correlation between theism and morality, just as there is no correlation between atheism and morality. Please address this issue.

    On the Underpinnings of Atheism- June ignores the corollaries that logically flow from being able to logically attain and defend an atheistic position in regards to metaphysics, and actually enforces the logical arguments that were presented in the link on the relation between Fundamentalist Christianity and Fascism. To be able to hold an atheistic viewpoint, one MUST be able to think independently, to doubt, to examine the evidence, to compare notes, and to form logical conclusions that then must be defended (in the tradition of the scientific process) from other logical arguments to see if they are correct, for the observer may not have known of certain facts, or have seen fallacies within her own argument. While correct in saying that there exist no imperative inherent in the atheistic viewpoint, June ignores the corollaries.

    On Biblical Morality- June makes an unproven assertion that the morals of God are good. Is this because of might? God defined it so, so therefore it must be true? In such a world where the whims and dictates of an unknown become the bedrock or any moral or ethical argument, you have already cut yourself off from being to present any evidence in a logical manner to uphold such a viewpoint. Or is June asserting the Platonic Ideal of The Good, with the Aquinine viewpoint of God, in definition of being Omnibenevolent, being the Incarnation of the Good? She presents no arguments, no evidence, no logic; just assertions that need to be backed up.
    -Subsidiary Point- June then presents situations which may, or may not, be factual, with no links or documentation to back them up. The rebuttal to this is that Christians, around the world, have upheld slavery, unjustly imprisoned and executed homosexuals, undermined the equality of women, and prevented aid and comfort to those most in need because they had dissimilar viewpoints. All of this point and counterpoint does is elucidate the original premise of non-correlation between theistic and atheistic viewpoints to the standard of morality.
    -Subsidiary of the Subsidiary Point :) – June’s assertion is that Absolute Morality comes from God, but still has not presented any arguments to this. I’m still waiting.

    On the Abstraction of Morality- June misinterprets the sentence “Morality is defined, regulated, and ruled by other ideas and concepts.” Please click on the links provided within the article, and you will see that by no stretch of the imagination did I assert relative moralism. In fact, my assertion is quite the opposite, in that I believe that there exists an absolute moral standard, but this standard is quite apart from the conception of God. Else, if they were one and the same, we would be in a world quite the worse for wear, as what is deemed Good and Evil would be nothing more but the suppositions and whims of an Omnipotent Being, leading as back to “Might makes Right”.

    On the Meaning of Life- June again provides and unproven assertion, without logical argumentation to back it up. For the purpose of a discussion revolving around if there is an ultimate meaning to life, June must first do these to back up the claim:
    1> Define God
    2> Provide reasoning in support for the existence of God
    3> Show that the God that is presented is the Christian God
    4> Prove the relation between God and Man
    5> Show the meaning of God (ie, what is the purpose of man’s life in the context happens to be recursively contingent up the purpose and meaning of God’s existence.)
    6> Show that her assertion of communion between God and man is the meaning of life.
    June has quite the chore in front of her in order to uphold this viewpoint.

    On the Straw Man- I have no idea what you mean when you write, “By the way, I have not heard that “straw man” knocked down. Please show me.” What straw man? Could you please be more specific?

    On the Case of the morals between the Theist and the Atheist- No such presentation was ever made in the context of Catholicism. This is a misunderstanding on your part. In writing what you have written, I believe that I can fairly ascertain that you believe that Atheists are apart from and separate from the religous context of society, hence ignoring the fact that most atheists became atheists from scrutinizing their own RELIGIOUS upbringing and views! Perhaps you would like to elucidate on this point? Also, you still have not answered the question of which would be considered to be more moral.

    I think that’s enough for now in order to continue this most important debate in the context of Biblical Slavery.

    Comment by inaeth — September 11, 2006 @ 3:35 pm

  5. Hmmm, reread June’s post, and saw something that absolutely must be addressed, as she is propagating another myth.

    On Morality and Evolution- June equates belief in evolution with belief in atheism. Again, this is a false assertion, and unproven and ungrounded. She then furthers her error in attaching the phrase “Survival of the Fittest” to evolution, another error. “Survival of the Fittest” was a term first coined by Herbert Spencer, a Christian Minister, to further his aims in equating “The Great Chain of Being” (at that time a contemporary Christian ideology much held by the upper crust) with the processes of eugenics and lassiaz-faire politics. In other words, it was a Christian who started the propagation of these horrid, immoral ideas.

    Comment by inaeth — September 11, 2006 @ 4:12 pm

  6. I’m sorry; but you are completely ignoring what I have said by writing it off as nonsense; but that only shows me how unwilling you are to see the truth because I made great points in there.

    The necessity of defining Catholicism presented itself when you equated it with Christianity. I can refute and condemn the actions of the Catholic Church or anyone claiming to be Christian by going to the Bible and finding where said action is condemned.

    That was the point of those examples of injustices against fundamentalists. If you had read it, you would know that I asked you what I can tell these atheists to show them how they are going against the principles of atheism to prove definitively that what they are doing is wrong. I can point to the Bible. What can you do? Granted, these articles don’t explicitly say that the people who arrested them are atheists. But that’s a little bit difficult to specify. These arrests, though, are a result of assaults on Christians in the political realm which are a result of free thought on the part of liberals.

    CHRISTOPHOBIA

    There Is No Christianity Without Christ

    Christian Arrested for Distributing Bible Quotes Opposing Homosexuality
    The evangelical Christian had not behaved in a violent or aggressive manner

    Christian arrested in Canada for preaching and praying.

    “Swedish Pastor Defends Anti-Gay Sermon”

    A Move to Change PA Hate-Crimes Law

    Silencing Christians In Saskatchewan: You Can’t Criticize Homosexuals

    Richmond Police Officer is on a mission to lock up Pro-life Christians

    Euthanasia in the Netherlands: Evidence of the Slippery Slope

    Netherlands Killing “Unfit” Babies

    Euthanasia Opponents React to Holland’s New Law

    (Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the articles on the arrests of Christians in the Netherlands again…)

    Quite frankly, you wouldn’t be able to prove to a Communist that what he is doing is wrong though. How would you tell the following Communists that this action is wrong?
    Christian arrested for refusing to recant
    It’s wrong because you say so? It’s wrong because someone else says so? It’s wrong because they wouldn’t like it?
    First of all, who are you to tell them what to do? How do you truly know what right and wrong are? Second, so what if they wouldn’t like it if it was them? There’s nothing really wrong with doing things to people that they themselves wouldn’t want done to them.

    Wrong doesn’t exist in the atheist world. If it’s wrong for the individual, it’s wrong. Period.

    You demand that I prove that the Bible is the authority; but if you read what I wrote, I clearly state that it’s wrong for me. I was refuting your assumption that I follow these moral codes because I will go to Hell otherwise. Here it is again:

    Quote Myself:
    I follow the morals of the Bible because it has proven itself to be the Word of God to me. And God’s morals are good. I follow them because they make the world a better place, not because they save me from a lake of fire because they do not.

    But this is supposed to be an analysis of atheistic beliefs, not Christian. You charge me with skirting the issue when it is you who is doing so.
    We are discussing atheism. Period. Unless I find that you are misconstruing Christianity, which was the point of those quotes.

    Please read my quotes and the text right above them. I am asking you for your opinion on them. Since it seems like you agree with them, I will just go ahead and tell you where I got them from. I got those quotes from here:
    Adolf Hitler – Christian, Atheist, or Neither?
    You can post links to books claiming that the Nazi leadership was Christian just because they were trying to win over a Catholic Germany; but private personal comments among friends and family state the contrary. I don’t know whether or not Hitler was atheist. He did use symbols of Hinduism and Buddhism for his flag; but one thing is clear. He wasn’t Christian.

    “When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease.” — Adolf Hitler (13th December, 1941, midnight)

    I must bring this to a close. When you are ready to discuss the implications of what I have said about atheism rather than diverting it to a discussion of Christianity, let me know.
    I will leave you with this final thing:

    Quote Inaeth:
    On Morality and Evolution- June equates belief in evolution with belief in atheism. Again, this is a false assertion, and unproven and ungrounded. She then furthers her error in attaching the phrase “Survival of the Fittest” to evolution, another error. “Survival of the Fittest” was a term first coined by Herbert Spencer, a Christian Minister, to further his aims in equating “The Great Chain of Being” (at that time a contemporary Christian ideology much held by the upper crust) with the processes of eugenics and lassiaz-faire politics. In other words, it was a Christian who started the propagation of these horrid, immoral ideas.

    Please read my words better. I did not equate evolution with atheism, although how atheists explain their origins otherwise is beyond me. I said,”With atheism, especially with the advent of evolution’s survival of the fittest, the strong are the ones who get to make the rules because there is no such thing as absolute wrongs.”
    I specifically separated the two defining “survival of the fittest” to be an addition. You can go back and check if you wish.

    On the “survival of the fittest” claims:
    Survival of the fittest

    In the first four editions of The Origin of Species, Charles Darwin used the phrase “natural selection” [1] and preferred that phrase. However, Spencer’s Principles of Biology drew parallels between his economic theories and Darwin’s biological ones and made first use in print of the phrase “survival of the fittest”. Darwin agreed with Alfred Russel Wallace that this phrase avoided the troublesome anthropomorphism of “selecting”, though it “lost the analogy between nature’s selection and the fanciers’.” It was used by Darwin in the 5th edition of The Origin published on 10 February 1869, in a secondary header of Chapter 4 about natural selection [2] and at several places in the text, mostly using the phrase “Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest”. He gave full credit to Spencer, writing “I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term natural selection, in order to mark its relation to man’s power of selection. But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer, of the Survival of the Fittest, is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient.” At this time the word “fittest” would have primarily meant “most suitable” or “most appropriate” rather than “in the best physical shape”.

    By the way, according to Wikipedia, Herbert Spencer was not a Christian Minister; or, at least, there is no mention of a ministry. See for yourself:
    Herbert Spencer

    Comment by June — September 12, 2006 @ 4:23 am

  7. June also said she does the right thing because it “makes the world a better place.” So why can’t that same reasoning be applied to atheists? Atheists do the right thing because it makes the world a better place. God/religion has nothing to do with it.

    Comment by Lynne — September 13, 2006 @ 2:57 pm

  8. Lynne, I think that is the crux of the matter that I’m trying to get at. I realize that June does not have a lot of time to respond in-depth to all of these arguments, but some sort of thesis on her viewpoint of morality, what it is, and where it comes from would probably clear up a lot of vague points in this discussion.

    Comment by inaeth — September 13, 2006 @ 3:41 pm

  9. Huh? Why didn’t the comment I posted days ago appear? I expected it to not appear immediately because of all of the links and because I tried to repost it but got the message that I was creating a duplicate post.

    Lynne, the reason why an atheist can’t have the same mentality is because an atheist has no basis for what makes the world a better place. An atheist who has grown up in a world full of Christian values will have an idea; but if this world had been devoid of those values or if you had grown up in a country that isolates people and has a different set of morals that aren’t exactly what’s good for people, then your notion of doing what’s right to make the world a better place will be warped.

    For example, the Waodoni Tribe in South America…. I tried to find a good article exclusively on the tribe; but all I have found so far is reviews on the movie End of the Spear; type “waodoni tribe” into a search engine; and you’ll see what I mean.
    Basically, it’s a tribe that isolated itself from the outside world that thought nothing of murder. They had killed each other nearly to extinction when the Christian missionaries went in. Four families went in to witness to them. All four husbands were murdered because of a dispute within the tribe over a girl, which was blamed without evidence on the missionary men. The wives, who had stayed at the base camp, remained there to witness to them despite this tragedy and brought these people to Christ with the help of a girl who ran away from the group.

    Anyway, the point is this: Why didn’t the tribe see that murder was wrong? Is there no one in the group that had that human instinct that must be there in order for atheists to know right from wrong without God?

    Okay, now I will get my original post, which I saved just in case.

    Comment by June — September 15, 2006 @ 1:17 am

  10. I’m sorry; but you are completely ignoring what I have said by writing it off as nonsense; but that only shows me how unwilling you are to see the truth because I made great points in there.

    The necessity of defining Catholicism presented itself when you equated it with Christianity. I can refute and condemn the actions of the Catholic Church or anyone claiming to be Christian by going to the Bible and finding where said action is condemned.

    That was the point of those examples of injustices against fundamentalists. If you had read it, you would know that I asked you what I can tell these atheists to show them how they are going against the principles of atheism to prove definitively that what they are doing is wrong. I can point to the Bible. What can you do? Granted, these articles don’t explicitly say that the people who arrested them are atheists. But that’s a little bit difficult to specify. These arrests, though, are a result of assaults on Christians in the political realm which are a result of free thought on the part of liberals.

    CHRISTOPHOBIA

    There Is No Christianity Without Christ

    Christian Arrested for Distributing Bible Quotes Opposing Homosexuality
    The evangelical Christian had not behaved in a violent or aggressive manner

    Christian arrested in Canada for preaching and praying.

    “Swedish Pastor Defends Anti-Gay Sermon”

    A Move to Change PA Hate-Crimes Law

    Silencing Christians In Saskatchewan: You Can’t Criticize Homosexuals

    Richmond Police Officer is on a mission to lock up Pro-life Christians

    Euthanasia in the Netherlands: Evidence of the Slippery Slope

    Netherlands Killing “Unfit” Babies

    Euthanasia Opponents React to Holland’s New Law

    (Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the articles on the arrests of Christians in the Netherlands again…)

    Quite frankly, you wouldn’t be able to prove to a Communist that what he is doing is wrong though. How would you tell the following Communists that this action is wrong?
    Christian arrested for refusing to recant
    It’s wrong because you say so? It’s wrong because someone else says so? It’s wrong because they wouldn’t like it?
    First of all, who are you to tell them what to do? How do you truly know what right and wrong are? Second, so what if they wouldn’t like it if it was them? There’s nothing really wrong with doing things to people that they themselves wouldn’t want done to them.

    Wrong doesn’t exist in the atheist world. If it’s wrong for the individual, it’s wrong. Period.

    You demand that I prove that the Bible is the authority; but if you read what I wrote, I clearly state that it’s wrong for me. I was refuting your assumption that I follow these moral codes because I will go to Hell otherwise. Here it is again:

    Quote Myself:
    I follow the morals of the Bible because it has proven itself to be the Word of God to me. And God’s morals are good. I follow them because they make the world a better place, not because they save me from a lake of fire because they do not.

    But this is supposed to be an analysis of atheistic beliefs, not Christian. You charge me with skirting the issue when it is you who is doing so.
    We are discussing atheism. Period. Unless I find that you are misconstruing Christianity, which was the point of those quotes.

    Please read my quotes and the text right above them. I am asking you for your opinion on them. Since it seems like you agree with them, I will just go ahead and tell you where I got them from. I got those quotes from here:
    Adolf Hitler – Christian, Atheist, or Neither?
    You can post links to books claiming that the Nazi leadership was Christian just because they were trying to win over a Catholic Germany; but private personal comments among friends and family state the contrary. I don’t know whether or not Hitler was atheist. He did use symbols of Hinduism and Buddhism for his flag; but one thing is clear. He wasn’t Christian.

    “When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease.” — Adolf Hitler (13th December, 1941, midnight)

    I must bring this to a close. When you are ready to discuss the implications of what I have said about atheism rather than diverting it to a discussion of Christianity, let me know.
    I will leave you with this final thing:

    Quote Inaeth:
    On Morality and Evolution- June equates belief in evolution with belief in atheism. Again, this is a false assertion, and unproven and ungrounded. She then furthers her error in attaching the phrase “Survival of the Fittest” to evolution, another error. “Survival of the Fittest” was a term first coined by Herbert Spencer, a Christian Minister, to further his aims in equating “The Great Chain of Being” (at that time a contemporary Christian ideology much held by the upper crust) with the processes of eugenics and lassiaz-faire politics. In other words, it was a Christian who started the propagation of these horrid, immoral ideas.

    Please read my words better. I did not equate evolution with atheism, although how atheists explain their origins otherwise is beyond me. I said,”With atheism, especially with the advent of evolution’s survival of the fittest, the strong are the ones who get to make the rules because there is no such thing as absolute wrongs.”
    I specifically separated the two defining “survival of the fittest” to be an addition. You can go back and check if you wish.

    On the “survival of the fittest” claims:
    Survival of the fittest

    In the first four editions of The Origin of Species, Charles Darwin used the phrase “natural selection” [1] and preferred that phrase. However, Spencer’s Principles of Biology drew parallels between his economic theories and Darwin’s biological ones and made first use in print of the phrase “survival of the fittest”. Darwin agreed with Alfred Russel Wallace that this phrase avoided the troublesome anthropomorphism of “selecting”, though it “lost the analogy between nature’s selection and the fanciers’.” It was used by Darwin in the 5th edition of The Origin published on 10 February 1869, in a secondary header of Chapter 4 about natural selection [2] and at several places in the text, mostly using the phrase “Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest”. He gave full credit to Spencer, writing “I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term natural selection, in order to mark its relation to man’s power of selection. But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer, of the Survival of the Fittest, is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient.” At this time the word “fittest” would have primarily meant “most suitable” or “most appropriate” rather than “in the best physical shape”.

    Whatever you want to call it, natural selection, survival of the fittest, it’s all the same thing. So focusing on the terminology is moot and a ploy to divert attention.

    By the way, according to Wikipedia, Herbert Spencer was not a Christian Minister; or, at least, there is no mention of a ministry. See for yourself:
    Herbert Spencer

    Herbert Spencer (27 April 1820 – 8 December 1903) was an English philosopher and prominent liberal political theorist. He is best known as the father of Social Darwinism, a school of thought that applied the evolutionist theory of survival of the fittest (a phrase coined by Spencer) to human societies. He also contributed to a wide range of subjects, including ethics, metaphysics, religion, politics, rhetoric, biology and psychology. Spencer is today widely criticized as a perfect example of scientism, while he had many followers and admirers in his time.

    But even if he had been a minister, he was still one that, obviously, did not believe in the Bible’s Creation story because he subscribed to evolution and natural selection. He would have been more of a Darwinist than anything else.

    Comment by June — September 15, 2006 @ 1:23 am

  11. In regards to a post being lost in cyberspace, I believe it. I think the WordPress engine is under development, or else their servers are getting overloaded by all the people with blogs that are trying to promote their writings to the front page of Digg or Netscape. Lately, the AJAX interface has been screwing up hard-core within my setup. I was thinking that it had something to do with my running Linux and Firefox. Then I thought it had something to do with Konqueror, my ‘backup’ browser on my system. (Think of Safari for the Mac, but with a lot more in the way of networking functionality and ‘power’ features.) Then, I checked with some local friends who post blogs on WordPress under Windows and IE (ugh, friends don’t let friends use IE!), and they all had the same complaints. For instance, when it comes to block quoting within the particular theme that I use, everything gets screwed up royally. Just look at the post that I put up tonight as evidence of this. (The mistakes that started to creep in can be seen at the bottom where the Founding Fathers’ quote were put.) I wished I knew more about PHP and Javascript, so that way I could work on the code in my spare time and contribute back to the tree. Alas, my forte is Object Oriented Languages, specifically C++. (Okay, okay, I program in C as well, but mainly because no one else seems to want to, and I actually ~like~ the arcane semantics within C for some reason! :) )

    The other night was was randomly cruising other blogs on WordPress, and promiscously posted comments on just about every article that I thought was good. (Which was nearly all of them, as I do not care what the viewpoint is when it comes to politics or religion- what I’m looking for is well articulated pages that can support and defend the ideas they put forth, or enlighten me to some new fact or reasoning I have not yet encountered.) Then, this afternoon, I looked into my ‘Comments’ menu item in the Dashboard menu, only to find that it had not reflected ~any~ of the comments that I wrote the night before! Not only that, but the only way that I found out that June had posted a comment here in addition to what she wrote several days ago was because I was overlooking all of the posts on the front page for other formatting errors that may have crept in when I realized that another comment had been posted to this article without a notification from the Dashboard agent!

    I’m not going to complain, though. I still think WordPress is an awesome piece of software. Like I stated earlier, I think it is due to the servers being overloaded.

    In reference to the Waodoni tribe, some things are in order. The main reason why this movie came to my attention when it was first released was because of the furor over casting Chad Allen (Our House, Dr. Quin, Medicine Woman) as the lead role. The reason for the controversy is because the son of Nathan Saint, the missionary that was killed, cast Chad Allen, who is not only a political activist but also gay, in the lead role of Nate’s father. Of course, when dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, anything dealing with homosexuality automatically results in controversy.

    However, the main point here is not that ‘atheists have no basis for morality’ as exemplified within the Waodoni tribe. As far as I can discern, the Waodoni’s were animists, yet another irrational belief system in regards to metaphysics. Nothing that they espoused when it came to morality or ethics was based upon Reason or Rationality.

    Perhaps a post from June in this regard will illuminate the issue, rather than keep it bound within vagaries?

    Comment by inaeth — September 15, 2006 @ 3:25 am

  12. Morality existed long before religion did – yes, even the Christian religion. Back when man thought that the sun was a giant flaming chariot that raced across the sky, we knew that murdering your neighbour and having your way with his wife was a big no-no.

    It all stems down to what have been coined as, in modern times, the social contract. We’re all basically hardwired in doing what is (in general terms) best for the survival of the species. In general, we help each other out, help each other to survive – it’s how species manage to grow and thrive in their given environment.

    Comment by Matt — September 15, 2006 @ 5:48 pm

  13. In reading Matt’s post, I was reminded of the paradox that is inherent in June’s reasoning. June states, over and over again, that Atheists have no basis for morality. However, if that were the case, then how would we be able to sit down and pass a moral judgement on anything? Even Proto-Christians would not be able to identify if the Gospels had any moral worth if there was no basis for morality outside of an authoritarian structure, but yet we can see that they did make judgements.

    Also, as far as the comments went, it seems Akismet was too busy marking everything as spam lately. Then again, I was locked out of WordPress earlier this afternoon, so I think I’m going to stick with my original assumption of server lag to be the culprit lately, especially with schools back in full swing and all the students vieing for attention of Digg, MySpace, Friendster, and Netscape…

    Both of June’s comments should be posted now.

    Comment by inaeth — September 15, 2006 @ 6:29 pm

  14. It’s amazing how many people can say atheists have no basis for morality but yet never ask an actual atheist what their basis for morality is. Why just assume something when you can just ask? To clear this up, atheists certainly do have a basis for morality. That basis is whatever is good for people, whatever helps us get along with each other, survive and prosper. And you don’t need a god to tell you what sort of things are good for people. All you need is some knowledge of history, sociology and psychology – but in most cases you don’t even need that. In most cases, all you need is empathy – the ability to imagine yourself in the other person’s shoes. And there is no evidence that atheists have any less empathy than anyone else. Fundamentalists, on the other hand, tend to be authoritarian and authoritarian personalities are less able to empathize with other people. (This has been proven by research.)

    That tribe you talked about was not an atheist tribe. They probably killed each other over their animist views just like most religions kill each other over minor differences of opinion. And Christian missionaries do not always improve the culture that they infiltrate. Just google Uganda and the Lord’s Resistance Army. The LRA is a Christian-based terrorist group that kidnaps kids and forces them to fight in their civil war. Why are they fighting? In order to impose Bible-based Old Testament law. Certainly Uganda would be better off if the Christian missionaries had never arrived.

    Comment by Lynne — September 16, 2006 @ 6:08 am

  15. [...] Well, after waiting several days, I finally figured out what was going on with the discussion that had started within the article ‘Atheism and Morality‘. It seems that Akismet, that wonderful utility that captures and flags spam, had been a little overzealous in capturing comments from other people, as well. Which, I guess, would explain why they myriad comments I’ve left on other blogs around WordPress have not appeared within my Comments menu item. I hope that this problem finally has been fixed. [...]

    Pingback by Rejoinder Comments on Morality « The Cathedral Arctic — September 16, 2006 @ 1:31 pm

  16. @Lynne

    That was the point of the article- to show that the myth of atheists being equated with either immorality or being amoral was just that, a myth.

    This seems to be lost on June, though, as whenever one of the fundamentalist’s presuppositions about atheism is debunked, they take it as a personal attack on their religion. It’s almost as if fundies today cannot define themselves without having a bogeyman to contrast themselves with, no matter how irrational and untenable the caricature is.

    But, then again, I may be surprised if June comes back with a well thought out, rational thesis on why these points have been put forward. At this point in time, though, I doubt it, especially if you look at all the past articles where this current digression of argumentation evolved. June likes to skip from point to point, and if one of the points June puts forward become debunked, then June quickly changes gears and hops onto another topic. Why, I do not know. I’d like to just discuss Inerrancy, Slavery, and Morality, but it seems like this will not happen, as June is already in the proces of changing gears to how oppressed fundies are in today’s society.

    Comment by inaeth — September 17, 2006 @ 2:11 pm

  17. In reference to the Waodoni tribe from Inaeth, I have not watched that film. The film that I watched on it was called Beyond the Gates of Splendor. It was a documentary. (I would not want a small child watching that thing. There was quite a bit of nudity in it, too much.) So I cannot attest to End of the Spear. The good thing about this documentary is that it had testimonies from real Waodoni. The man who killed the missionaries is now a dear friend of their sons.

    As for the Waodoni religion, I found a reference to them being formerly known as Aucas. So I did a search on that and found this:
    Dr. William Tidmarsh learns of the Auca Indians through a Jumbo Indian girl

    Apparently, this is the same tribe because at the bottom is a link to an article on Jim Elliot, who is described as a missionary to the Aucas. Plus, the girl mentioned in the article, I believe, is the same girl who helped the women reach the tribe. The story is the same for the most part.

    On reference to the Waodoni religion, it says this:

    One of the things in which Dr. Tidmarsh was most interested was the language of the Aucas and their personal appearance. Joaquina had learned practically the entire vocabulary – it is a very primitive tongue and Dr. Tidmarsh has produced the only written phonetic Auca dictionary in the world. They have no words for abstractions and have no conception of or words for heaven or hell. They do, however, acknowledge a Supreme Being whose name is Wanka. Joaquina did not seem to understand the role of this god. The Aucas have no word for demons, which are ruling spirits in the lives of the so-called tame Andean Indians. Theirs seems to be a language absolutely unrelated to any other on record, and it would appear that they represent a link to the past thus far totally unexplored.

    They believed in a god, but this god had no role in their lives or, at least, none that Joaquina could discern after living there long enough to learn the language. Sounds much like a deist, who also has no basis for their morality since their concept of god is not involved in human affairs.

    Thus, there was obviously no dictate from their god to kill each other and outsiders. They just did it because they wanted to.

    Is that it? No more? What about my questions on what you would say to these people in modern countries who are oppressing Christians? What is your basis for proving them wrong according to atheistic beliefs?

    You see, it’s all good and well when you speculate on these things in think tanks or some form of intellectual discussion. Unfortunately for these people, a nasty thing called reality steps in; and that reality is that right and wrong is not the same for everyone; and without God there to tell us a definitive right and wrong, such things are subject to each person’s point of view; and we either devolve into chaos or bring the weak under the rule of the strong.

    That is the flaw of atheism. It is a religion where man is god. Unfortunately, man cannot agree with each other.

    Quote Matt:
    Morality existed long before religion did – yes, even the Christian religion. Back when man thought that the sun was a giant flaming chariot that raced across the sky, we knew that murdering your neighbour and having your way with his wife was a big no-no.

    Genesis 9:5-6
    5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. 6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.

    This was given to Noah, the father of the world after the rest of mankind was wiped out. Obviously, it would filter down in the great majority of cases.
    Whether you believe this or not is irrelevant if that is going to be your response to this. What matters is that Christianity has an answer to your charge. God did not only reveal Himself in the time of Jesus. He didn’t just leave the world to it’s own devices for 4000 years. He revealed Himself mainly to a group of people called the Israelites. There is mention in the Bible of other nations knowing God. Even the Egyptian pharoah knew God at some point in history around Abraham’s time; but it seems that these people strayed from God.

    Quote Matt:
    It all stems down to what have been coined as, in modern times, the social contract. We’re all basically hardwired in doing what is (in general terms) best for the survival of the species. In general, we help each other out, help each other to survive – it’s how species manage to grow and thrive in their given environment.

    All evidence is to the contrary. We are likely to want our immediate friends and family to survive; but history shows that man without the true God is unconcerned with the well-being of other groups.
    Heh. I mean look at what the majority of atheists promote. Abortion, few children

    How can this species survive without a younger generation to replace the old one dying out? Governments are having to pay women to have children in modern countries because their nation is dying out. There is a female shortage in countries that don’t care for girls. That will also kill off a nation.

    Yet this species insists on abortions. Large numbers of this species persists in perpetuating the thing that will most assuredly ensure the death of this species.

    Why is that?

    Quote Inaeth:
    In reading Matt’s post, I was reminded of the paradox that is inherent in June’s reasoning. June states, over and over again, that Atheists have no basis for morality. However, if that were the case, then how would we be able to sit down and pass a moral judgement on anything? Even Proto-Christians would not be able to identify if the Gospels had any moral worth if there was no basis for morality outside of an authoritarian structure, but yet we can see that they did make judgements.

    Just as the Waodoni were able to recognize right when they saw it, so too are we able to recognize it in most cases unless we have a determination to the contrary; but we cannot formulate it on our own; and we cannot give it a firm basis apart from God. Our own formulations are as good as the next guy’s whether detrimental or not because who’s to say it shouldn’t be detrimental to someone? Is that really wrong? I mean, what if that person or those people are holding society back? What if they themselves are detrimental.

    Also, God does enable people to see things:

    John 6:60-65
    60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

    He also gives the Holy Spirit to individuals, which helps inspire them and guide them.

    Acts 2:16-17
    16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

    1 Corinthians 13:2
    2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    2 Peter 1:19-21
    19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    But even these are held up to Scripture to determine whether or not they are contrary to the Bible. All that are contrary are discarded.

    1 Corinthians 14:29
    29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

    Quote Lynne:
    That basis is whatever is good for people, whatever helps us get along with each other, survive and prosper. And you don’t need a god to tell you what sort of things are good for people.

    Ditto what I said above. (And I did ask.)

    Where is your empathy for the unborn? Where is that empathy in atheist originating nations? Where is that empathy going in the Netherlands, Canada, and even the U.S. for Christians as more atheistic ideas are infiltrating?

    Why is it that fundamentalists are incapable of something that is supposed to be built into individuals?

    Wow, fundamentalists are so unempathetic that it is Christian organizations that provide the vast majority of the aid to hurting people around the world.

    Quote Lynne:
    And Christian missionaries do not always improve the culture that they infiltrate. Just google Uganda and the Lord’s Resistance Army.

    You must resort to this? Tell me where Jesus commanded such actions. Tell me on what foundation did they place this action on?
    Did the region really suffer because of Chrstianity or because of a mad man who wanted his way and who would have done this regardless?
    I don’t want to put in another link for fear that Akismet will capture it; but I googled this; and here are some things that are from the articles I discovered:

    From GlobalSecurity.Org:
    In May 2004 a report by the aid organisation, Christian Aid, condemned what it described as a shirking of the government’s responsibilities to protect the people of the north “borne out of a lack of will”. It accused the government of herding civilians into camps ostensibly to protect them from the LRA without offering those living in camps the protection they needed. The Ugandan government rejected the report, saying the report was “completely unfair”.

    A Christian aid organization? Hmm… I thought Christianity only brought harm to the region.

    This sounds like what Islam or Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses is. It’s a strange copy of Christianity with a twist; yet we do not put these groups together with Christians. So why are you joining the LRA in with Christianity, especially since it doesn’t sound like they believe in Jesus, only in the Ten Commandments, which has a clear statement of “Thou shalt not kill” or the Old Testament, which would put them closer to Judaism than Christianity?

    Quote Inaeth:
    That was the point of the article- to show that the myth of atheists being equated with either immorality or being amoral was just that, a myth.

    Yes, and your article is flawed. It’s filled with fantasy, not reality. It does not correlate with reality.
    “For there is none righteous, not even one.” We are all immoral. Every one of us. We do our best to follow God’s commands; but we will always fail in the end. That’s why we need Jesus.

    Quote Inaeth:
    This seems to be lost on June, though, as whenever one of the fundamentalist’s presuppositions about atheism is debunked, they take it as a personal attack on their religion. It’s almost as if fundies today cannot define themselves without having a bogeyman to contrast themselves with, no matter how irrational and untenable the caricature is.

    Quote me to show how I have been irrational.
    Prove to me that you have debunked my suppositions on atheism. I have posed questions to you. Where are my answers?

    Quote Inaeth:
    But, then again, I may be surprised if June comes back with a well thought out, rational thesis on why these points have been put forward. At this point in time, though, I doubt it, especially if you look at all the past articles where this current digression of argumentation evolved. June likes to skip from point to point, and if one of the points June puts forward become debunked, then June quickly changes gears and hops onto another topic. Why, I do not know. I’d like to just discuss Inerrancy, Slavery, and Morality, but it seems like this will not happen, as June is already in the proces of changing gears to how oppressed fundies are in today’s society.

    Now it is just getting mean and baseless. This is the only time when I have diverted from the previous topic. In fact, it is you who has diverted from topics. First you diverted from the topic of slavery in the Bible after I proved to you that your source had lied. You have to run off to other topics while claiming that you have debunked my points when you have failed in every regard. You are attempting to force me to go around and around with my argument by starting new articles all the time making it seem as if I did not say what I said and making it hard for people to follow the argument.

    Now when I challenge your reasoning on atheism in an article you started on atheism, you divert to the validity of Christianity because you know that you have no response for me. None.

    I am listening; and all I hear is a few things from Lynne and Matt that come close to trying to address what I have posed.

    You people sit there on your high horse thinking you know who I am and what I am; but you don’t. You haven’t a clue.
    I have mentioned my roots in Catholicism on my maternal grandmother’s side; and on my blog I have mentioned my Mormon roots on my maternal grandfather’s side; but I have yet to address my paternal side.

    My paternal grandmother was a Buddhist; but my paternal grandfather was an atheist. I have never met my paternal grandmother since she died long before I was born when my father was, I think, 18; but I have hugged and loved my paternal grandfather, who never demeaned me for being Christian. Quite frankly, he was what an atheist should be. Atheists believe that we live then die and go into the ground, every one of us without exception. There is no punishment after death no matter how much of a tyrant you are. Yet atheists insist on harassing people of faith. We believe that if you do not believe that you will end up with eternal punishment. Therefore, we must tell you if we care one iota about you; but atheists have no such belief yet harass anyway. My grandfather, to my knowledge, did not. He lived a peaceful life just believing what he did. He had a Buddhist altar that my grandmother put up in his apartment, which his live-in maid also believed in. He didn’t care.

    My father used to be an atheist, as well. His siblings were all either atheists or Buddhists, but mostly atheists. What changed? Well, he came to the US to study and encountered the Campus Crusade for Christ organization. He was the first in this family to convert to Christianity.

    I don’t know when his sisters converted; but, at least, two of them are now Christians. My mother converted from a non-practicing Catholic to Christianity while pregnant with me because of one of my four aunts on my mother’s side who had converted not long before.

    One of my two remaining aunts who had rejected Catholicism and became atheists on my mother’s side converted to Christianity next.

    Then my paternal grandfather converted to Christianity not long before he died after he found out he had hepatitis and would not live much longer.

    Then my maternal grandfather converted from Mormonism to Christianity after an encounter with a mysterious woman who knew so much about him.

    Now my cousin who is the son of my mother’s sister who is still an atheist is beginning to turn. He was raised in atheism. He lived that life; and now he is dissatisfied. It’s been a long road; and he’s not there yet; but he has asked us to take him to church.

    I know what you were thinking. You sat there as judge and jury and assumed that I came from a long line of Christian fundamentalists. When just the opposite is true. Christianity is a new thing in my family. My parents were new Christians. My mother didn’t even follow the Catholic doctrines all that well after she was out of the house.
    When you think of us, you think of a family mulling over the Bible with gospel music playing in the background.
    Yet we have never had that family Bible study that I have heard most Christian families have. We have all had to read it and learn from it on our own. Some Catholic doctrines are still in my mother’s mouth from years of teaching.
    And I was raised on Julio Iglesias, Raphael, John Denver, Elvis, the Carpenters, Kenny Rogers, Neil Diamond, etc. and on songs such as “Besa Me” and “Miss American Pie” (That was a favorite traveling song.).

    This family has been there, done that, and we are not going back.

    Comment by June — September 21, 2006 @ 4:26 am

  18. Inaeth, June, etc –

    I realize that I am stepping into this debate, at least on this particular post, a bit late, but Lynne hit the nail on the head: there really hasn’t been much inquiry into how an Athiest themself would define their morals. As I’ve already posted on this, as have several other people, I’d like to present to you how I would define my own atheistic morals:

    http://doubtingthefish.wordpress.com/2006/08/03/where-my-morals-come-from/

    I’ll break it down in post (quoting myself), so the link isn’t neccessary:

    Step 1: “Humans are the only animal that have evolved a sense of personal identity, a sense of individualism, a distinctiveness from each other individual in our species.” To elaborate a bit, while there is evidence that some other animals do share an ‘me vs. them’ type of awareness, very few animals truly have been shown to (with the exception being higher primates, and even that is somewhat limited compared to humans). Even at the higher primate level, the ‘me vs. others’ mentality is limited to purely immediate actions, with very limited ability to put a past/future understanding on that mentality. Only humans have been shown to have developed that distinct of individuality, and only humans are capable of logically explaining individuality.

    Step 2: “Step 2: Defending the nature of your being is an essential part of every being on earth, human or otherwise.” This is an innate reaction to every being, every biological organism, and has been shown time and time again, plants, viruses, animals and humans: we all share the natural defense mechanism.

    Step 3: “If individualism is a natural evolutionary phenomena of human beings, and we as human beings have a natural obligation to defend our nature, then defense of individuality is our right.” This may sound redundant, but often logically reinforcing steps are.

    Step 4: “If a being cares enough about something to defend it, then there is an expectation that the being is reasonably obligated to respect the same aspect of other beings.” And by respect, I don’t neccessarily mean R-E-S-P-E-C-T as Aretha put it, but rather that, if you feel the need to defend something, then you had better understand that others will do the same.

    Step 5: “Thus, morality becomes the respect for individual rights, and immorality becomes violating someone else’s individual rights. Essentially, non-coercion: I can’t infringe upon anyone else’s nature, and they can’t on mine.” Fairly straight forward. The basis for morality, I would argue for everyone’s whether they admit it or not, is non-coercion, and a reciprocity of non-coercion between beings.

    This is largely based on the idea of self-ownership, which I’ve expressed thoroughly in another post here:

    http://doubtingthefish.wordpress.com/2006/09/02/self-ownership/

    You can read that one for yourselves if you’d like. Atheist morality, without God, is indeed possible (and I would argue much more logically coherent).

    Thanks!

    -olly

    Comment by ollysk2 — September 21, 2006 @ 3:57 pm

  19. To reply to the bits I raised and you replied to…

    Using Noah and the great flood as an example is not appropiate since there is no evidence at all that any sort of global flood occurred (and such a cataclysm would have left a LOT of evidence, even in the modern day). Throw in the logistical and logical impossibilities of such an event being able to take place and we can quite safely conclude that, at best, any flood was restricted to a small part of the middle eastern region. If it happened at all.
    So does chirstianity have a response? Yes, it does. Does that response stand up to any sort of scrutiny or make any sense? No, it doesn’t. Therefore, it is not appropiate.

    As for the Social Contract… widely accepted theory which, in scientific circles, is as solid as it gets. Almost every single animal species on the planet is hardwired to help out it’s own kind, it is how species manage to survive from one generation to the next.

    As for the issue of abortions. Sometimes it is just to abort a fetus (rape victims, medical issues, etc) and with the world in the shape that it is in (with the Human race using far more resources than the world can sustainably support) … well, you’d be a fool not to agree that we have an over population situation.

    Comment by Matt — September 21, 2006 @ 4:17 pm

  20. Usually, I would go into the practice of quoting from June’s post and then immediately reply to that in order to make sure everyone knew exactly the frame of reference I was using for the rebuttal, but this is getting tedious within the comments section. For this reason, I had started the other posts, namely Biblical Errancy which takes a look at the Doctrine of Inerrancy in context of slavery in the bible, as well as the fact that it gets fundamental things wrong both about nature, and other facts such as history, geography, etc. Then there was the Rejoinder Comments on Morality that I posted, which looks specifically at June’s comments when it comes to morality, and its application into either Theistic or Atheistic modes of thought. Seeing as June is still skipping from point to point, which was the whole reason why I posted those separate articles in which to limit the scope of the discussion to either morality or inerrancy, I thought that June would have posted on those as well. Come to think of it, I’m still waiting for June to post a thesis on the basis of morality, and how it applies to Fundamentalist Christianity.

    Be that as it may, we are now being dragged to discussing the virtues of the Waodoni tribe, familial backgrounds in Christianity, and the ethics of abortion, with lots and lots of assertions with no proof behind them. The reason why this is irritating to me is because I have called for June, over and over again, to post a thesis on morality. These cries have gone unmet. I’m beginning to believe that the reason why these cries are not evidenced in June’s posts, or even in her quotations from mine own articles, is because she cannot do this. In fact, take a look at this quote: “Now it is just getting mean and baseless. This is the only time when I have diverted from the previous topic. In fact, it is you who has diverted from topics.” Hmmm, I had posted about June’s lack of coherence about morality, and the fact that she has not posted a single thesis, premise, or idea about the origins of her own absolute morality. Instead, she attacks me as being mean and making accusations without cause. Not to mention, further in the paragraph, she seems to slip in the classical projectionist stance of accusing me of doing all the things that she has done.

    Let me be clear- if you make a logical fallacy, and someone says that such an argument is fallacious, that is not being mean. If you avoid the main point of the discussion, and instead diverge to wildy more and more tangential topics, and someone points that out to you, that is not being mean. If you constantly throw out unproven assertions, and people call you on it, that is not being mean. If you adhere to myths and stereotypes of your opponents viewpoint, and people call you on it, that is not being mean. Neither is it baseless. What is does show is that you will hold on to your viewpoint, no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented, and no matter how many illusions of the contrary point of view you have to clutch to your chest.

    Or is that being mean again? You can prove me wrong at any point by posting a logical, coherent thesis of your absolute morality, and specifically how it applies to slavery. I’ve been waiting for this for a month now.

    Comment by inaeth — September 22, 2006 @ 1:06 pm

  21. Quote Lynne:
    And Christian missionaries do not always improve the culture that they infiltrate. Just google Uganda and the Lord’s Resistance Army.

    June:
    You must resort to this? Tell me where Jesus commanded such actions. Tell me on what foundation did they place this action on?
    Did the region really suffer because of Chrstianity or because of a mad man who wanted his way and who would have done this regardless?
    I don’t want to put in another link for fear that Akismet will capture it; but I googled this; and here are some things that are from the articles I discovered:

    Lynne:
    You’re missing the point. The point is that genuinely believing in God doesn’t make you immune from making terrible, immoral mistakes (like following a lunatic who says he speaks for God.) Nor is religion particularly well-suited to teaching what is good, moral behavior. If it did, then there would be some sort of correlation between religiousity and behavior, but there is not. Therefore, there must be something else – other than religion (or even atheism by itself) that helps us make better moral decisions. That something else is a combination of empathy and knowledge (from collective past experience and history), both of which are of the natural, physical, material world – not the supernatural. –Lynne

    Comment by Lynne — September 23, 2006 @ 11:30 am

  22. Well, for now, there is no way that I can read all of this let alone reply to it all. With a quick scan, though, I can see some things that need a little bit of attention.

    Inaeth, I call you mean because you are accusing me of precisely what you are doing to the exact “t”. It’s as if you looked at yourself, described yourself, then replaced your name with mine. I’m not the one who has used false sources or made a false assertion to support my argument (i.e. Henry Spencer and the “pornoi” guy’s argument.) then ignored what the other has show with Bible verses in support of God ordering good treatment of aliens.

    Matt, I do believe that I said this:

    Whether you believe this or not is irrelevant if that is going to be your response to this.

    But if you want a look at the Flood, then read some things from here and do your best to disprove them.
    FAQ Flood
    I have so many people arguing against me that I cannot deal with everything.

    Note to everyone:
    I do not support people of religion. I only support Christianity, period.
    I categorize everyone else as being nearly the same as you guys, except that you have no basis for your morality, whereas they do.
    (Animals still run around killing each other. And the governments of those modern countries that are begging women to have babies would dispute the claim that there are too many of their own citizens. They wouldn’t mind other countries decreasing in population; but they don’t like their own. So they love this world so much that they are willing to sacrifice other countries’ people. Generous, huh?)

    BIG NOTE TO EVERYONE:
    As far as I could see from my scan, no one has yet to answer my one burning question. What would you say to a Communist to prove that they are doing wrong? What would you say to those modern countries?

    You can cite animals all you want but reality on the human front still spits in your face.

    Comment by June — September 28, 2006 @ 10:43 pm

  23. By the way, I may be out for a while nursing my cold. (Meh, wait ’til winter… *gag*)

    Comment by June — September 28, 2006 @ 10:45 pm

  24. Well, it seems that June has come out of her shell. After all this time of silence on her end, I was expecting a well put together, concisely edited exposition of her position on morality, and how it applied to the Biblical Doctrine of Inerrancy, especially in the context of slavery. However, the only thing that I received was a screed. To be fair, the beginnings of this discussion were cordial enough. That ended when I tired of the constant Red Herring Fallacy, and started to point out over and over again the numerous logical fallacies that were endemic to June’s argumentation.

    Of course, I’ve stood by my word in that I’ve offered no name calling, no ad hominem attacks, no derision on personal character. Instead, I’ve concentrated on the arguments that were at hand, and I’ve posted numerous articles, complete with links for supporting documentation and reasoning, on why I think the way that I think. I’ve stated before that I’m willing to change my mind as long as new evidence and new reasoning was brought to bear upon the subject at hand; or if a flaw existed in my current reasoning that could be shown and explained. However, June has changed the topic numerous times, and is now reduced to calling me “mean” rather than posting her viewpoint on morality and how it is derived from the Bible.

    Indeed, up until she declared me a Communist, I was content to go with the flow of the debate. However, numerous myths, deceits, and out-right lies were enumerated in her posts that I had to post some of the myths that the fundies circulate about atheists, and then debunked them in a gentle manner. It seems that that would not suit June at all, though, as it appears to me, and to others, (who, incidentally, kept to the topic at hand rather than deviating into their own personal prejudices and soap-boxes and actually posted about the origins or morality and how reason defines such rather than faith) that she is still side-stepping the issue. For instance, Olly posted a very good, very concise article on how reasoning and morality applies. I’ve given links to other sites explaining how ethics, morality, and reasoning are all inter-related with each other, and shown that Faith is at best not related to morality, and at worst subjects morality in the name of a “higher” belief. These issues still have not been answered.

    I’m not the one who has used false sources or made a false assertion to support my argument (i.e. Henry Spencer and the “pornoi” guy’s argument.)

    Actually, I’ve not used false sources. You never asked me for the edition of Strong’s Concordance I referred to before I put up the link in question. If you had covered your bases, and asked, you would not be in such a hurt position that you will be if we actually want to continue the whole “arsenkoitai” argument. You must realize that this verse in particular is very contentious, and there are those in the world, who like you, will change evidence to conform to their own beliefs rather than changing their own opinions on the subject at hand. As to Henry Spencer, that was already dealt with. However, in my opinion, if you are only “scanning” the articles, I can see why you over-looked my exposition on him; especially since it dealt with Christian obfuscation of the theory of evolution, as well as their many deceits and errors in thinking when it comes to the topic. Having said that, the whole subject of evolution is not what is being debated here. We are debating morality and the Bible. As far as your verses “condemning” slavery, the only thing that you showed was that the Bible is not inerrant. You applied no method of exegetical, eisegetical, or hermeneutical thought on how those verses were to be interpreted in tandem. At best, by positing those verses without rigorous methods of interpretation, you made yourself look ignorant. At this point in time, given the Wikipedia entries into differing methods of interpretation when it comes to the Holy Bible, you look more ignorant than anything else. Given your statement that you only scan through these articles, however, I can see why you may have overlooked the points that I raised. I would encourage you to introduce yourself to the methods of interpretation of Theology that are most in wide use. Wild assertions lacking any reasoning or evidence will, as a matter of course, be derided.

    As far as the Biblical accounting of the Great Deluge, the only thing that I can ascertain is that you have no knowledge of geology or the scientific method. In fact, I suspect (and you can prove me wrong at any point here) that you only visit those web sites and books that will only support your previously held suppositions on the matter. I would even go further to guess that you completely overlooked my article on some of the problems that the Great Deluge has in supporting evidence that I posted about previously. Not only that, but there are thousands of web sites out there explaining all of the myriad problems that Global Flood has inherited from flawed methodology and evidence. If this is another topic of debate that you want to open up, then I encourage you to post your viewpoints and evidence on the article of mine that was previously cited.

    As to your complaint that you have everyone arguing against you, do not fear. Everyone else has been succinctly and concisely on topic, and all of the theses have been on one topic and one alone: the formulation of morality without resorting to religion. If you have an argument against this, then all you have to do is post it, either here in a comment’s section, or on your own blog. I’ve been nothing but fair to your own arguments and comments, and if you decide to publish on your own blog, I will faithfully reproduce your article here on the Cathedral Arctic. Somehow, at this stage in the game, I do not think you will be able to do such, as I’ve been asking you to do this for over a month now, and you still have not posted a thesis on morality and how it applies to religion or the Bible. (Did you notice that dichotomy I put up against the Bible and religion? I suspect that you and I have very different reason for positing such a dichotomy, but for very different reasons, which will be an interesting discussion some day.)

    In reference to why you only support Christianity, I would ask you to explain why. Is it lack of knowledge about the other religions? Is it because of a firmly held belief that everything else besides Christianity is Satanic?

    As to having a firm basis to morality, it has been shown here over and over again that those who come to their morality and ethics through Reason have a much firmer basis than those who come to it through religion. Again, you’ve done nothing but post an unexplained rationale for the way that you think.

    As far as I could see from my scan, no one has yet to answer my one burning question. What would you say to a Communist to prove that they are doing wrong? What would you say to those modern countries?

    You can cite animals all you want but reality on the human front still spits in your face.

    Um, June? This has already been answered. Because you’ve already admitted to not really reading in-depth the posts that are here, I will repost it for you:

    Again, we can ascertain that Communism is wrong through reason. The a priori maxim of ‘Each man has a right to his own life’, with all of the corollaries, show that communism is wrong.

    If you do not understand what I posted, I would only be too happy to explain to you the framework for morality that I used in order to reach such a conclusion. I think, though, that you did not ask because your were afraid of one of your myths about atheists being debunked. Again, you can prove me wrong at any point. I say this not to be mean, but because this topic has been dealt with time and again with you still saying that no one has dealt with it.

    Comment by inaeth — September 29, 2006 @ 2:10 am

  25. Replying to ‘answeringenesis.org’ is something others have done again and again and again and yet they continue to hold onto their wall of ignorance, putting their fingers in their ears and going ‘lalalalalala’. That is something I will not waste my time with.

    The points I raised previously still stand; you state that the flood happened. There is no verifiable evidence that says it did, therefore the rational conclusion must be that it didn’t. Try to explain to me why there is a complete lack of evidence for any mass flood, why there is no mass fossil layer, where all the water came from and went to, why the dimenions of the ark would make it an engineering and physical impossibility, why there’s no mass sediment layer, etc etc

    While you’re at it, try showing me some evidence to support the existance of the exodus, which is another biblical tale which clearly never happened.

    Comment by Matt — September 29, 2006 @ 4:24 pm

  26. Quote Inaeth:
    Well, it seems that June has come out of her shell. After all this time of silence on her end, I was expecting a well put together, concisely edited exposition of her position on morality, and how it applied to the Biblical Doctrine of Inerrancy, especially in the context of slavery. However, the only thing that I received was a screed. To be fair, the beginnings of this discussion were cordial enough. That ended when I tired of the constant Red Herring Fallacy, and started to point out over and over again the numerous logical fallacies that were endemic to June’s argumentation.

    *sigh* How could you begin to understand? You probably wouldn’t even care anyway. So there’s no point.
    But one thing that you can probably understand is exhaustion. I write things late at night or early in the morning because that’s the only time that I have to do this; but when I do this, I cause myself to become extremely exhausted. That compounded with my cold, which is giving me a headache, neckache, shoulderache, and backache, is causing extreme exhaustion.
    I already rarely posted on my blog; and yet you expect me to post more often here?
    I don’t even get to read these things until much later, the very day I respond to them. I only read this just now.

    Please show me where I have deviated when I was not led there by one of you. I am curious about this.
    I spoke about Catholicism because you were assuming that I believed in it’s doctrines. Other than that, I can’t see where I have deviated. So please prove your contention.

    One thing that I am beginning to understand is why you people keep talking about religion as a terrible way to teach morality. It’s because you are looking at this from an atheist point of view, whereas I am looking at this from a theist point of view.
    When you look at this, you are thinking of religion as a method to coerce people into behaving.
    When I look at this, I am thinking of which religion is actually from God.

    Therefore, you look at all religions and say that since the majority of them do not produce good behavior that religion must be a terrible method of forcing people to behave.
    Whereas, I look at this and say that since Christianity has by-enlarge produced the most good that that must mean that God has revealed Himself through the Bible and the rest are man-made. In fact, Christianity is so great that so many people have taken it and adapted it into their own religion. Mohammed nearly exactly copied it. Joseph Smith had his own take on it. The Jehovah’s Witnesses adapted the Bible into their own version. Buddha took many of Jesus’ teachings. Ghandi took many teachings from the Bible. So many people have seen Christianity and seen it’s goodness but have had a hard time swallowing the core message; so they remove what they don’t like from it and produce their own religion based on it. In the process, they reject the Author of those great teachings though.

    What I do not understand is why you do not apply the same measure to atheism that you do to religion. You guys have such a double standard. You say that religion doesn’t produce good behavior, therefore it must be a terrible method of teaching morals; yet you refuse to see how atheism fails to teach any morals.

    Ever since atheism and relativism came into the mainstream, things have steadily gone downhill in this country. My mother says that, when she was a kid, they would roam the neighborhood without a care. Would you let your kid do that today? My grandfather, who came from farmers, used to have a gun when he was a kid as did all of his friends. He says that he would go out to the barn when he was a kid and shoot all of the rats; yet no one ever shot each other with them. (In fact, back in colonial times, it was mandatory that every household have a gun.) Would you hand your kid a gun today? In the past, people wouldn’t think twice about leaving the front door unlocked. Would you do that today?
    Look at all of these school shootings. How come we didn’t have extra security before them? There wasn’t extra security because such things never happened until recently when God has been banned from schools.

    There was always some crime. After all, man was born in sin; but it wasn’t nearly as prevalent when God was spoken of at every turn.

    You say that there is no correlation between morality and religion; but even in Muslim countries there is. We have Muslim friends from Pakistan who say that things are going downhill over there, as well, as fewer and fewer people follow their scriptures.

    Quote Inaeth
    Indeed, up until she declared me a Communist, I was content to go with the flow of the debate.

    Um, when did I call you a Communist? I could have sworn that I only assumed that at the beginning when you posted on my blog because one too many have been Communists; but I took you at your word when you said that you weren’t. However, I did ask you if you were a socialist, which, by the way, you have not confirmed or denied; but I asked you. A question gives you the ability to answer “no”.

    And, like I said, the debate halted as soon as you ignored what I wrote.

    Let me be clear- if you make a logical fallacy, and someone says that such an argument is fallacious, that is not being mean. If you avoid the main point of the discussion, and instead diverge to wildy more and more tangential topics, and someone points that out to you, that is not being mean. If you constantly throw out unproven assertions, and people call you on it, that is not being mean. If you adhere to myths and stereotypes of your opponents viewpoint, and people call you on it, that is not being mean. Neither is it baseless. What is does show is that you will hold on to your viewpoint, no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented, and no matter how many illusions of the contrary point of view you have to clutch to your chest.

    It’s only not mean if you can prove it; but instead you said this:

    But, then again, I may be surprised if June comes back with a well thought out, rational thesis on why these points have been put forward. At this point in time, though, I doubt it, especially if you look at all the past articles where this current digression of argumentation evolved. June likes to skip from point to point, and if one of the points June puts forward become debunked, then June quickly changes gears and hops onto another topic. Why, I do not know. I’d like to just discuss Inerrancy, Slavery, and Morality, but it seems like this will not happen, as June is already in the proces of changing gears to how oppressed fundies are in today’s society.

    I had maintained the topic of slavery for weeks until I made a small comment on another article right after I had finished with an argument on slavery since I had time. Then you wrote this article, which, I guess, you expected me to not respond to because you called it skipping from point to point when I did.
    I only have so much time, a point that I have stated over and over and over again. If you wanted to remain on topic, then why did you move onto this?

    Why, in your response to mine on slavery, did you not stick to the topic of slavery? Why did you move on to such things as chewing the cud, which I could deal with except that I only have time for one topic at a time.

    Also, you seemed to forget that you were the one who pointed out first that it took over a thousand years for Christian nations to abolish slavery! I simply responded to that point! That was not my whole reasoning! I first pointed out that slaves themselves turned to Christianity!!! That was my point though I meant to also say that abolitionists were Christians making their arguments based on Christianity. This was a point that you ignored and misread in the beginning. It was as if you expected me to respond that Christians were abolitionists so much that, when I said that slaves converted, you immediately changed it in your mind to mean other than what I said.

    Besides, when you posted those verses from the Bible you conveniently forgot to include the verses after many of them such as:

    Ephesians 6:9
    9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

    Colossians 4:1
    1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

    And you refused to directly quote the verse that supposedly allows masters to beat their slaves or give it context:

    Exodus 21:16-21
    16 “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. 17 “Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. 18 “If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist and he does not die but is confined to bed, 19 the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed. 20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

    In the case of free men hitting free man or free man hitting slave, neither is to receive punishment if the one beaten gets up and walks around.

    Or is that being mean again? You can prove me wrong at any point by posting a logical, coherent thesis of your absolute morality, and specifically how it applies to slavery. I’ve been waiting for this for a month now.

    I have already done so in comments. You just purposely ignore them.

    In reference to why you only support Christianity, I would ask you to explain why. Is it lack of knowledge about the other religions? Is it because of a firmly held belief that everything else besides Christianity is Satanic?

    It’s because God says in the Bible that there is only one God and that He is that God and that there will be no other gods before Him.
    Besides, any other possible options are mere copies of Christianity.

    Quote Inaeth:
    Actually, I’ve not used false sources. You never asked me for the edition of Strong’s Concordance I referred to before I put up the link in question. If you had covered your bases, and asked, you would not be in such a hurt position that you will be if we actually want to continue the whole “arsenkoitai” argument.

    If you had anything, then why didn’t you post it in your response to mine?
    Errancy and the Bible

    Quote Inaeth:
    As to Henry Spencer, that was already dealt with. However, in my opinion, if you are only “scanning” the articles, I can see why you over-looked my exposition on him; especially since it dealt with Christian obfuscation of the theory of evolution, as well as their many deceits and errors in thinking when it comes to the topic.

    Where? I read the comments above. I don’t see it.

    Quote Inaeth:
    As far as your verses “condemning” slavery, the only thing that you showed was that the Bible is not inerrant. You applied no method of exegetical, eisegetical, or hermeneutical thought on how those verses were to be interpreted in tandem. At best, by positing those verses without rigorous methods of interpretation, you made yourself look ignorant. At this point in time, given the Wikipedia entries into differing methods of interpretation when it comes to the Holy Bible, you look more ignorant than anything else. Given your statement that you only scan through these articles, however, I can see why you may have overlooked the points that I raised. I would encourage you to introduce yourself to the methods of interpretation of Theology that are most in wide use. Wild assertions lacking any reasoning or evidence will, as a matter of course, be derided.

    Well, those verses were obvious. They shouldn’t need interpretation. They lay it out there.

    Leviticus 19:33-34
    33 “‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

    Exodus 22:21
    21 “Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

    Exodus 23:9
    9 “Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.

    Leviticus 19:10
    Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.

    Leviticus 23:22
    22 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.’”

    Leviticus 25:35
    35 “‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.

    Leviticus 25:47-48
    47 “‘If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien’s clan, 48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him:

    Deuteronomy 7:12-15
    12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

    Deuteronomy 10:18-19
    18 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.

    Deuteronomy 24:17
    Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge.

    Deuteronomy 16:12
    When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

    Deuteronomy 26:13
    Then say to the Lord your God: “I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them.

    Deuteronomy 27:19
    “Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

    Psalm 94:1-6
    1 O Lord, the God who avenges, O God who avenges, shine forth. 2 Rise up, O Judge of the earth; pay back to the proud what they deserve. 3 How long will the wicked, O Lord, how long will the wicked be jubilant? 4 They pour out arrogant words; all the evildoers are full of boasting. 5 They crush your people, O Lord; they oppress your inheritance. 6 They slay the widow and the alien; they murder the fatherless.

    Psalm 146:9
    9 The Lord watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.

    Jeremiah 7:5-7
    5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever.

    Jeremiah 22:3
    3 This is what the Lord says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

    Ezekiel 22:3-7
    3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O city that brings on herself doom by shedding blood in her midst and defiles herself by making idols, 4 you have become guilty because of the blood you have shed and have become defiled by the idols you have made. You have brought your days to a close, and the end of your years has come. Therefore I will make you an object of scorn to the nations and a laughingstock to all the countries. 5 Those who are near and those who are far away will mock you, O infamous city, full of turmoil. 6 “‘See how each of the princes of Israel who are in you uses his power to shed blood. 7 In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the alien and mistreated the fatherless and the widow.

    Ezekiel 22:29-31
    29 The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice. 30 “I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none. 31 So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

    Ezekiel 47:21-23
    21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance,” declares the Sovereign Lord.

    Zechariah 7:9-12
    9 “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.’ 11 “But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. 12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the Lord Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets.

    And I didn’t quote every single verse either.
    So all of this is wrong because God allowed Hebrews to buy who sell themselves to them even though God also allows aliens to buy Hebrews who sell themselves.
    Quite frankly, if you read Leviticus 25 again, you will see that buying each other was a concession on God’s part. If the Israelites followed verses 35 -38 then there would be no need to sell yourself; but giving is supposed to be from the heart.

    Leviticus 25:35-55
    35 “‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.

    39 “‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. 47 “‘If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien’s clan, 48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. 53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly. 54 “‘Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

    Oops. I ran out of time. I must go now.
    Sorry.
    I’ll do yours later, Matt.

    Comment by June — October 4, 2006 @ 4:27 am

  27. June said: “Ever since atheism and relativism came into the mainstream, things have steadily gone downhill in this country. My mother says that, when she was a kid, they would roam the neighborhood without a care. Would you let your kid do that today? My grandfather, who came from farmers, used to have a gun when he was a kid as did all of his friends. He says that he would go out to the barn when he was a kid and shoot all of the rats; yet no one ever shot each other with them. (In fact, back in colonial times, it was mandatory that every household have a gun.) Would you hand your kid a gun today? In the past, people wouldn’t think twice about leaving the front door unlocked. Would you do that today?
    Look at all of these school shootings. How come we didn’t have extra security before them? There wasn’t extra security because such things never happened until recently when God has been banned from schools.”

    First off, since when has Atheism been mainstream? American’s, by and large, still self-identify as believing in God, and most of them self-identify as Christian’s. Secondly, you have shown no correlation here. I could just as easily have said “ever since Dr. Seuss became popular, the crime rate has risen.” Where’s the correlation? Why not blame Television? Why not blame Barney? Why not blame sattelites? or the position of mars and the moon?

    Show me some evidence that links an atheistic worldview and the rising crimerate.

    Thirdly, have you thought of population growth? Have you thought of continued class divisions artificially placed here by a fascist State? Have you thought of disillisionment with the nuclear family, caused by the promises that religion itself makes about marriage, without any guidance on day to day issues?

    There are SO many factors that can be pointed to for the increased crimerate, and if you think that ‘Atheism’ is the reason, you seriously need to do some research.

    “Look at all of these school shootings. How come we didn’t have extra security before them? There wasn’t extra security because such things never happened until recently when God has been banned from schools.”

    Again, you are making a false corellary here. You have no evidence to point to that says that God being ‘removed’ from schools has any direct impact on school shootings. God certainly was involved in the justification of the Crusades which killed a hell of a lot of people. God was involved in the KKK lynching blacks in the south. God was involved in all the burning of abortion clinics, with several deaths associated. The difference here? These are situations where the people doing the killing, bombing, burning, and lynching ADMITTED that they did these things for God. They were PROUD of that fact! Have any of the school shootings been BECAUSE of a lack of belief in God? Show me some proof!

    “One thing that I am beginning to understand is why you people keep talking about religion as a terrible way to teach morality. It’s because you are looking at this from an atheist point of view, whereas I am looking at this from a theist point of view.
    When you look at this, you are thinking of religion as a method to coerce people into behaving.
    When I look at this, I am thinking of which religion is actually from God.”

    How else would you classify something that uses threats of eternal damnation as a tool for morality than coercive? Because that’s what hell is, right? Or is it something else than a place where those whom don’t behave get punished? Christian’s (and other religious folk) can pontificate all they want about ‘the love of God’ and that the reason they obey is ‘because I love God’, but if that’s the case, why is Hell neccessary?

    We view religion as coercive because, like any collectivist belief system, coercion is it’s bread and butter. Religion subjugates the individual in favor of the whole, and every pastor, priest, or clergymember I’ve talked to would agree with this: and subjugation of the individual is BY DEFINITION coercive.

    “Therefore, you look at all religions and say that since the majority of them do not produce good behavior that religion must be a terrible method of forcing people to behave.”

    Any method that *forces* people is wrong, regardless of whether it’s political or otherwise. True morality is based on a rational understanding of *me* as an individual against the backdrop of *everyone* as individuals. I look at the root causes here, not just the effects of religion (though certainly I’ll look at those as well). The root causes of problems, within religion, are based on hypocrisy within scripture that leads to confusion; they are based on fear; they are based on nihilism about this life, and this world because of a focus on the next one.

    “You say that there is no correlation between morality and religion; but even in Muslim countries there is. We have Muslim friends from Pakistan who say that things are going downhill over there, as well, as fewer and fewer people follow their scriptures.”

    You are buying the liberal muslim apologetics line here, hook, line, and sinker. Muslim scripture encourages conversion by the sword. Therefore, as is usually the case, the extremists are being MORE faithful than their countrymen to Quranic scripture.

    But regardless, this is the problem with basing your morality on scripture in the first place: IT’S ALL OPEN TO INTERPRETATION!!!! And you all do it! Scripture has been constantly re-interpreted to fit into the world at the time for thousands of years. You accuse US of relativism? I’m not a relativist at all. My morality is founded up on concrete, universal principles.

    But Christian scripture (and indeed the scripture of every relgion) is re-interpreted depending upon the whim of the person doing so, depending upon the wnats of the followers, the times, whatever, but it’s always re-interpreted. MORALITY (i.e. scripture) THAT IS OPEN TO INTERPRETATION IS THE DEFINITION OF RELATIVISM!!!

    -olly

    Comment by ollysk2 — October 5, 2006 @ 2:42 pm

  28. Quote Inaeth:
    Again, we can ascertain that Communism is wrong through reason. The a priori maxim of ‘Each man has a right to his own life’, with all of the corollaries, show that communism is wrong.

    Ah! But what if that “person” isn’t really a person? I mean, we all evolved from animals but most specifically primates. Right? The different races all evolved from different primates on different continents. What if some of them are not fully developed? After all, a justification for the mass murder of the unborn is that they are not fully developed humans.
    So what if some of these people aren’t fully developed? In order to have any rights, shouldn’t these races prove that they are fully developed humans? In order to do that, we must compile a list of criteria for fully developed humans. (If you think about it, it’s quite miraculous that the races can interbreed because, even though their origins came from distinctly different primates in distinctly different climates and surroundings, they still acquired enough common qualities to allow for procreation. That is rather miraculous because the things that prevent cats from breeding with dogs is rather slim.)
    I’ve heard that a person is not a person if they do not have complete brain functions. This allows justification for murdering the unborn, the infirmed, and the elderly. So does this mean that it’s okay to kill a 3 month old baby? Is a six year old child not fully a human because his brain is not as developed as a mature adult? Are we less human as our brains deteriorate as we get older after we pass that peak age?

    What about people who have higher brain functions? Are they even more human than everyone else because of that or maybe a species above us? Doesn’t that mean that they should be able to dictate what everyone else should be doing because they are more capable of understanding things? If we don’t get it, it’s because we are lower on the ladder of evolution.

    Also, why does man have a right to life in the first place? What if preserving someone’s life means the detriment of the species? That’s the basic reasoning behind imprisoning Christians for sharing their faith in modern countries. Communists use similar reasoning. The ideas of Christianity jeopardizes “the hive”. Therefore, in order to preserve the well-being of the rest of humanity, they kill or imprison them and other religions. (i.e. The religion of that Chinese woman who recently jumped at China’s leader while he was visiting the US because he had massacred people of her religion.)
    Also, the world is becoming too overpopulated. If we don’t do something about it, the entire earth will suffer. This reasoning is used to justify mass murder of the unborn. It’s only a small step away from mass murdering those outside of the womb because it’s the only way to effectively save the earth. We can’t provide enough contraceptives to everyone around the world. Besides, contraceptives don’t always work. We have to do something that will actually make an impact fast.
    Although, contraceptives not only don’t completely prevent pregnancy. They also don’t completely prevent disease. Who knows? Maybe that’s why they are so insistent on distributing contraceptives to the people in Africa and not talking about abstinence at all. They want the AIDS to spread and kill off as many people as possible down there.

    Quote Matt:
    Replying to ‘answeringenesis.org’ is something others have done again and again and again and yet they continue to hold onto their wall of ignorance, putting their fingers in their ears and going ‘lalalalalala’. That is something I will not waste my time with.

    Can you give me links? I’ve been trying to find rebuttals. I think I just found something that might be interesting. I think this “talkorigins.org” site will be useful to search when I have the time.
    But it would be great if you could give me some links to things you have seen.

    Quote Matt:
    The points I raised previously still stand; you state that the flood happened. There is no verifiable evidence that says it did, therefore the rational conclusion must be that it didn’t. Try to explain to me why there is a complete lack of evidence for any mass flood, why there is no mass fossil layer, where all the water came from and went to, why the dimenions of the ark would make it an engineering and physical impossibility, why there’s no mass sediment layer, etc etc

    Actually, there is a surprising amount of non-decayed fossils in the earth, soft fossils, too.
    I just came across this site that tries to give rebuttals to some common creationist arguments. One part of it says this:

    The rate at which new phyla came into being during the early Cambrian Period is an area of active research. The fossil record for the upper Precambrian and lower Cambrian has been sparse for a number of reasons (most organisms did not have hard shells which are readily fossilized; there is limited exposure of lower Cambrian strata around the world). Regardless, the Cambrian “explosion” occurred over a substantial time period of 15 – 35 million years.

    Current investigations in Australia and Canada are showing that there was a wide diversity of organisms living in the late Precambrian, extending the origin of phyla by many millions of years.

    Creatures resembling trilobites, fossil imprints of jelly fish, sponge spicules, various types of worms (and worm burrows) are found in Precambrian strata tens to hundreds of millions of years before the lower Cambrian. Cambrian organisms had a long ancestry.

    So in the lower Cambrian and upper preCambrian stratas, there aren’t soft-bodied creatures because they deteriorated. BUT in the lower PreCambrian strata there are plenty of such soft tissued creatures as jellyfish. Hmmmmm….

    If the Flood had never happened, then why are there so many examples of undeteriorated fish and soft-bodied creatures? If the “present is the key to the past” then a discovery of undeteriorated fish should be rare.

    Oops. Must go…

    Comment by June — October 6, 2006 @ 4:38 am

  29. “After all, a justification for the mass murder of the unborn is that they are not fully developed humans”

    Never heard that one before. Instead, it’s usually that they have not yet developed self awareness and therefore are not human life as we define it.

    As for your flood ‘findings’, you seem to lack any grasp of the subject and you yet again failed to reasonably refute any of the points I raised. Since you have demonstrated a lack of understanding of the principles of not only logic but also the scientific method … I won’t waste any time making detailed responses. Instead, here’s a link:
    http://www.creationtheory.org/YoungEarth/Hartman-6.shtml

    Enjoy.

    Comment by Matt — October 6, 2006 @ 5:23 pm


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